Making a list and checking it twice

Yesterday the mister and I checked a couple of big things off our list: geneticist and psychologist.

The geneticist was great. She was incredibly perky which surprised me. I guess I thought it would be all about dry numbers and statistics but she made it kind of fun. She even got to create a couple of new symbols for the family history for us as there is no standard symbol for embryos.

It was reassuring to get a more thorough medical history of George,Martha, their kids, siblings and parents. Neither the mister or I get too freaked out about small things in medical histories. Hell, our own might not look so good to someone else. Everyone has something right?I think the geneticist to the stars was relieved by that. She was also surprised by how we asked all the questions she intended to bring up and seemed to know a lot about genetics. I guess that undergrad degree in biology combined with way too many graduate courses in statistics not to mention my honorary RE certification are really paying off.

Apparently to the geneticist the Big Three are birth defects, mental retardation, and early childhood deaths. Those three are totally clear and that's all we care about.

We met with the psychologist first and I was pleasantly surprised by how well it went. I figured it would go well but I didn't think I'd get much out of it. Due to the joys of our clinic being one of the largest teaching hospitals around, we had a psychiatry resident sit in on our meeting. She seemed nice enough: she nodded and smiled and looked very earnest. Oh and youuuuuung. She also looked very young.

I think she knew from our earlier phone conversations and meeting at the RESOLVE conference that we'd thought through many of the issues and had a fairly reasonable handle on expectations and what might come up. My biggest concern was coming off as a bit too knowledgable, if you kwim. Never admit to another psychologist you can fake any test.

I'm not sure if it's of any interest to write about what she asked so I'll mention some of it. If it is of interest to anyone who's considering donor eggs or donor embryos let me know and I'll discuss in more detail some vaguely future post.

She wanted a brief history of our infertility and how we got to where donor embryo seemed like the best option. We also talked a bit about our relationship in general and how infertility impacted it. We talked about how we'd done a lot of the work to move on and how we just want to be parents. We talked about how grateful we each were that we'd always been on the same page in terms of treatment as well as family building options. We talked about what each of the ectopics had done to us and how they'd affected our decisions. We acknowledged this cycle might not work but that we and the donors were realistic about that. There are expectations on both sides and whatever happens we've all acknowledged that it might not work out. We talked about out meetings with the donors and out anticipated future meetings. We talked about what and how we'd tell our children. I talked about moving from being an egg donor to an infertile and how that impacted some of our decisions. We talked about our contract with the donors. We agreed to a meeting of the four of us with a psychologist if the psychologist they meet with recommends it (the donors are meeting with someone close to where we all live for scheduling reasons) but that we'd already met on our own and planned to continue that. All of that was fairly standard. None of that was a surprise.

The first question that took me back was when the psychologist asked how we'd deal with parenting issues. Say if the donors and we had different parenting styles. Um, hello, just because it's a known situation doesn't mean we won't be the parents, and fully entitled ones at that. We will be making all decisions about parenting and our family. I suppose it could be uncomfortable if we had radically different parenting styles and we all spent a lot of time together. I think that's unlikely to be the case. I think we might see each other occasionally but doubt that we'll suddenly all be hanging out together. They're busy, we're busy.

Just like some of our friends have similar parenting styles to us and some don't. Actually most of our friends seem to have fairly similar parenting styles, it's our relatives who are dramatically different. I can see many more potential problems with my crazy in-laws than with this very sane donors.

Then came the huge surprise: who should we name as guardians of our children?

I must admit I was shocked by this question. Obviously the mister and I need to figure this sort of thing out once we have kids, probably before but the 'having kids to plan for' still seems so far away. The psychologist seems to think some donors would expect to be named guardians. I was very surprised by that.

I wouldn't think any ovum or sperm donor to be named guardian. I certainly would not have wanted that when I was the egg donor. Why are embryos so different? They psychologist seemed to think there were cases where that would be the best decision.

Our contract is very clear about the fact that all rights are terminated by the donors at the time of transfer. I think we should probably have a discussion with George and Martha about this but I have a feeling we're all on the same page.

I suppose in cases where the embryos were from another family member that might make a lot of sense. The match that didn't work out for us earlier could be an example of that. That match didn't work out because the donors discovered one of their siblings was experiencing infertility and might need donors. In that case, guardianship by the donors (who are also aunt and uncle) might be the best option.

In our case, we haven't really talked about who would be guardians to our children. Perhaps because our heads are firmly stuck in the sand and we hope nothing else that bad could happen to us? More likely because we still feel like parenthood is a ways away and we have time to make those decisions.

At first glance, I think it would likely be my sister and brother-in-law. Both sets of parents are aging. You all know how I feel about my brother-in-laws. And especially my sister-in-law. Perhaps it would be some friends of ours. I think we'd want someone to raise our children the way we would and perhaps friends would be more in line with that? I dunno.

I do know that if we were pursuing adoption at this point, or even another round of donor egg, no one would ask us this question.  That doesn't mean we don't need to think about an answer and cover our bases but perhaps it does mean there's more work to be done in educating medical personnel about the  nature of  parenting with donor gametes. 

So I'm curious. what do you think about this? I'd love to hear anyone's opinions. Especially if you've used donor gametes to build your family or are considering donating your embryos to another IP.

Comments

[DD]

Is this psychologist someone who has dealt directly or studied specifically, donor issues? I'm really surprised myself that he would think the donors would be the guardians...maybe he thinks the donors are "known" or relatives...

The first question was a little odd as well, but as I thought about it we all have to deal with parenting styles whether it's with people we know or don't know. I mean we each have opinions about the parent with the unruly child in the grocery store; or the parents at the park, because ultimately we ALL have different parenting styles.

[Lut C.]

If you adopt, you don't name the birth parents as legal guardians. I don't see why this would make any more sense with donor gametes.

I guess if the donors are relatives, it may be hard not to choose them. Though even in that case I might be reluctant, and feel the need to keep distance.
I'd fail the psychologists test, most likely.

[Karen]

Those questions are very odd. We didn't get anything like that during our psych evaluation, though I suppose that's apples and oranges since we were working with an egg donor. Still, that does seem to betray ignorance of how the whole process works.

[Bonnie]

Those questions seem inappropriate. Of course, though, I wasn't too thrilled with some of the questions the social worker asked us prior to giving us the green light to pursue donor gametes.

I really don't know how I feel about people pursuing donor eggs, donor embryos, or adoption being held to a higher standard than the fertile or even garden variety infertile. In lots of ways I think it's bullshit. In another way, I think everyone having a child, fertile or not, should ask themselves these questions.

[thalia]

Hmm, seems you have a psychologist who believes in the primacy of the genetic link over anything else. Strikes me that a more appropriate suggestion is that whoever you have as a guardian knows and is agreeable to maintaining whatever contact plan you've set up with george and martha.

Sounds like things are proceding apace. What's next?

[anon]

I agree with your other readers -- and yourself, I think -- when I say that I would hardly assume that gamete or embryo donors are logical guardians.

There is one exception, and that is the one you pointed to and the situation I find myself in. And even then it's complicated.

I have one (hard-won, oh so hard-won) child who is, amazingly enough, from my and my partner's genetic material. But that child was a one-off. (I won't say "miracle child," cause the phrase makes my skin crawl, but let's say laboratory lottery kid.) And right now, our plan and hope for another one hinges on my sister's genetic material. It so happens that I really LIKE my sister, and I had told her before we embarked on this path that I hoped she would be the guardian of my child if my partner and I were to die. Now I don't see why it would be any different if I had another child, one issued from one of her eggs. And yet I am aware that this is a situation I really don't want to arise. Not simply cause I'm hoping to hang around and see this (and possibly that) kid for a while longer, but because I think the psychological complications of such a guardianship would be tougher than having a known-loved-available-and-yet-physically-distant-aunt-and-donor.

Like you, I plan on being open with any child issued from donor material (and if it doesn't work with my sister, I'll keep trying with whatever other found footage I can muster). I'd prefer that there be an open relationship so that everyone's curiosity and insecurities can be appeased as much as possible. But there remains a line between parenthood and donorhood that I think is important to respect. I'm not building a "village family"; I'm building my family with some help from the village.

That said, and my strong difference of opinion with your psychologist expressed, I suspect (and hope) that she can deal with your your own difference. When my partner and I met with the psychologist, before my sister went in, I found I didn't always agree with her opinions, but the fact that she seemed willing to admit to them already hinted to me that she felt she was dealing with capable adults. And although her "approval" was necessary to progress to stage II at the hospital, and although it was clear she had often enough not approved, she had also clearly "allowed" people with different attitudes: those who planned on being open with their kids, for example, and those who planned on keeping mum. So it was important to remember that she is entitled to her opinions as much as we were, but that her opinions were not the basis of her approval.

As an aside (do I deserve an aside after going on for so long?), I'll tell you that we live in northern Europe, and parents' attitudes towards donor material varies here according to lattitude. So it seems the further north you go, the more parents tell their kids. French parents, for example, are more unwilling to discuss donor material with their kids than are Belgians, who are themselves less likely to discuss it than the Dutch.

Finally, finally, and most importantly, I want you to know I am so hoping it works for you.

[statia]

Like, you, these questions throw me for a loop. You wouldn't name a surrogate mother the guardian if you hired her to carry your child. You're paying her for a service. Who thinks that far ahead when they're still in the "trying to get pregnant" stage of things? I know she was trying to be thorough, but honestly, that's way too far ahead of the horse for any infertile to even put on their radar.

I could see this in adoption before I could see this in a donor egg cycle.

[Pamplemousse]

The planning ahead questions totally threw me during our counselling sessions. The idea it might work and there be an actual child was an alien concept at that point. I just kept saying "I need to get to that stage first". And ha!, here we are, almost exactly one year later and funny, not a pressing issue in sight. Me? Bitter much???

[Sparkle]

In Oz if you embark on Int. Adoption you have to name a guardian - so it can be submitted with your application. I guess the thinking is that you've thought of all situations.

It sounds like this counsellor is applying the same thinking?

Our friends were considering taking up an offer of embryos from friends - the friends had a similar request. That the recipients be the guardians to their children and vice versa. They are not going ahead with this for other reasons, but were extremely uncomfortable with the idea.

We were asked about the parenting style thing - and it threw me for a loop as well.

[Bebe]

I've been thinking about this one a lot, because it just seems so odd to wonder about George & Martha as guardians. Seriously, that would have never crossed my mind. It seems that goes against your termination of rights as well. I mean would they make you their kids guardian?Glad you didn't freak them out with all your fertility brilliance.

[Louise]

Wow- that question about guardianship would have surprised me, too. My guess is that the psychologist must not interact with many donor families on a regular basis.

[coloratura]

wow, much has passed since I last checked in on you! this is very exciting! not sure I agree with the psychologist on guardianship... seems like as the parents have all the rights to make that decision... I sincerely hope all goes smoothly... good luck with everything!

so much more interesting to think about than 'the holidays'... :P

[Liana]

Interesting. Being a fatalist, I've always thought about who would be guardians for any potential children, but it never occurred to me that a donor might want that role. This isn't an "I'll get them back in case of death" scenario. Bizarre.

[rosie]

those are really odd questions. as others have said, it wouldn't be expected that you would name a sperm or egg donor guardian. very weird.

we had a lot of trouble with picking legal guardians...it took us way too long. it's not something that you should be expected to come up with on the spot.

[daisy mae]

hi there. i don't know anything about blogequitte, so not sure if i'm supposed to be going back to previous posts to comment, or if i'm supposed to comment under your most recent post. i'm commenting here, since i'm really commenting about this post. and the whole issue of guardianship.

anyway, we met with our genetic counselors today. and apart from recommending donor eggs AND a gestational carrier, we talked about the risks of attempting another pregnancy with my eggs and my uterus.

apparently both dh and i are of the senior citizen set when it comes to attempting reproduction. (yep - life over 40). like your geneticist, we talked alot about genetic issues, birth defects and mental retardation. and as we discussed that - the whole issue of guardianship came up. since we have a daughter, the geneticist assumed that we have named a guardian. and the question came up - would our guardian be willing to be the guardian of a handicapped child? and is it fair of us to potentially pursue a pregnancy that could result in a handicapped child - and put the burden of caring for a handicapped sibling on our current child - who could potentially be in her 20's or 30's when mom and dad keel over.

so i guess i have a choice over choosing the egg donor versus the gestational carrier as my unborn childs guardian. or risk burdening my 2 year old with a potentially handicapped sibling. or what would i ever do if my egg donor gestational carrier unborn child turned out handicapped? like i don't have enough to worry about on my own.

the questions and what ifs just never end.

~daisy mae

[Leggy]

I'll be sending an email too, but how come I'm just now finding out you are in the midst of pursuing donor embryo? Girlfriend, we have lots to talk about.
As for your psychologist- I'm frightened and horrified by this. Was this someone your clinic recommended or required you to see? To suggest that the donors have any say in parenting style and/or should be considered guardianship shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the donor/recipient relationship. It is a gift they are giving, with no strings attached. And yes, they should sure you are psychologically fit, but once that's been established and they agree to donate, that's where all obligations end.
What particularly horrifies me is that if God forbid anything happens to you and your husband, your future child should be raised by someone they know/love/trust intimately (eg, an aunt/uncle, best friend of yours, etc)- not "given back" to donors who may be relative strangers to the child just because of the genetic link.